			    TRAVELLER Digest 442

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Internal Structure and Armor by Matthew Robert Briggs <briggsm@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
  2) Missle sizes by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  3) Vincennes & TL17 by Alex Holt <aholt@cnj.digex.net>
  4) Sub design by James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
  5) Various by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  6) Re: Vincennes & TL17 by Scott and Vivian Nolan <nolan@DGS.dgsys.com>
  7) Re: Various by "'Emperor' Charles Pratt" <capratt@u.washington.edu>
  8) RE: Various by That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 14:40:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matthew Robert Briggs <briggsm@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Internal Structure and Armor
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9510081408.A10635-0100000@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>

	I had an idea regarding the long, difficult struggle some of us 
have had with the Gmax*10 minimum value for ship's armor.  I agree with 
whoever it was a while back that said that it seemed illogical to have 
this rule, because potential damage from micrometeorites was based on 
speed, rather than acceleration.
	When you look at missiles, they only have an AV of 1-3, based on 
TL, even though they can accelerate at great rates, sometimes as much as 
25g!  This means, to my eye, that they don't worry too much about damage 
from anything because they aren't designed to last anyway.  But it did 
give me a thought.
	Many missiles nowadays have the skin of the missile an integral 
part of the structure of the craft.  ICBMs and such use a "stressed-skin" 
construction that saves weight, but it does make them somewhat vulnerable 
to damage.  
	What if the AV of 1-3 on missiles doesn't represent armor at all, 
but merely the exposed "stressed skin" of the missile, contained as part 
of internal structure?  The variation due to TL could be explained as a 
rounded approximation of the protection afforded by the outside skin of a 
completely unarmored vehicle, using different materials available.
	That does not, of course, answer the question of how low an AV of 
a starship should be allowed to go, but I suggest that some arbitrary 
minimum number should be set.  The lowest I remember in an existing 
design was 10 for a subsidized merchant, and that sounds pretty 
reasonable to me.
	I am, of course, open to comments and suggestions.  Also, does 
anyone have a complete set of rules on developing wet navy ships?  It is 
an irritating oversight from FF&S and I think I missed them, wherever 
they appeared.  Thanks!

					Matt Briggs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Oct 1995 12:47:59 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Missle sizes
Message-ID: <01HW73O13UDYCVCFFQ@pimacc.pima.edu>

Just thought someone might be interested in some 'real-world'
USN missle sizes.

(Note; info from 'US Naval Weapons', Norman Friedman, 1983)

		      diameter		length		weight
Air-to-air 		     	
Sidewinder 		 5"		112.2"		188lbs
Sparrow 		 8"		143.85"		510lbs
AMRAAM			 7"		140.7"		327lbs	
Phoenix			15"		157.8"		985lbs

Air-to-surface
Harpoon			13"		180"		1304lbs
Tomahawk		21"		252"		3181lbs

Surface-to-air
Standard ER		13.5"		314"		2900lbs
Standard MR		13.5"		168"		1400lbs

 
For comparison		 19.7"=.5m
			 29.5"=.75m
			 39.4"=1.0m
			157.5"=4.0m
			
Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 21:17:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alex Holt <aholt@cnj.digex.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Vincennes & TL17
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951008210009.26106A-100000@cnj.digex.net>

I am real fond of the RSB answer for why Vincennes could not go to TL17.  
In my mind TL advancement is not something that can be actually 
controlled.  The knowledge exists, there is the advancement.  It would be 
alright for the Regency to say that we aren't going to buy TL17 ships 
(eg, force standardization).  In my view a business would economically 
justify an investment that would bring about TL17.  This can be 
accomplish during normally equipment retooling.  A present day example 
of this can be seen in many industries.  Consider a service field 
computerizing.  Or the car manufacturer introducing the Anti-Lock brakes 
in next years model.  Finally consider the modern day bicycle 
manufacturers which over the last 10-15 have introduce aluminum and 
carbon-fiber to bicycles with no severe disruption to supply or cost of 
new bicycles.  

To summarize, in my campaign(s) and mind, Vicennes is in the process of 
going to TL17.  This process could take 2-20 years.  This process is also 
happen on other worlds going from any tech level to another.  I guess I 
am just put off by the statist/socialist aproach in the RSB.  


Alex
aholt@cnj.digex.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Oct 95 18:33:09 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Sub design
Message-ID: <9510090133.AA21231@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

The only formula for armor thickness relating to submersible depth is for MegaTrav,
and has little relevance to TNE.

The Meson Sub idea has been around since the first wet navy rules started development,
but only with FF&S do we have an answer to the question: "How much volume IS a
rotating Meson Gun going to take up, anyway?"

James Kundert <j.kundert@genie.geis.com>
              <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 22:54:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (traveller)
Subject: Various
Message-ID: <9510090454.AA06430@Rt66.com>


Howdy,

Well, I've been making a TL16 Diplomatic Courier (for lack of a better
name).  It'll be done my Monday night I'd say.  How are you other
designers doing?  Mine's a hair over budget :-)

It got me thinking.  I did the design as straight FFS, but I also
calulated the CT/MT crew levels (I used the HAIS stuff from gdw-beta,
but didn't require any hardware, I just reduced selected crew areas by
25% (I figured that traveller computers have *always* been too big, so
they might as well include all the automation functions on the ship)).

I didn't know what the diplomatic staff was, so I have 5 diplomatic
staterooms (large, single occupancy), and room for 8 staffers doubled in
small staterooms.  I threw in 5 troops as well.

I had problems given the desired "crew".  It would be more helpful to
know what the diplomatic staff looks like, actually, because the crew is
predecided by the design.

Other stuff:

I was playing with TL16 HEPlaR missiles, and decided on one point.

I will use armor = 3 on all missiles, and brace HEPlaR ones for
their max gs output (int. structure).  Published missiles have higher
max gs, and their maximum velocity relative to the interstellar medium
(ISM in astro-lingo) can be just as high (with no rule that states "a
missile above such and such a speed is dead.").

Oh yeah, what would you call "long legs?"  I was thinking g's, then
thought that big jumps mean faster reaction...


-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 03:06:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott and Vivian Nolan <nolan@DGS.dgsys.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Vincennes & TL17
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.951009030413.21311A-100000@DGS>



On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, Alex Holt wrote:

> I am real fond of the RSB answer for why Vincennes could not go to TL17.  

I am sure that Alex meant that he is NOT fond, etc.

> 
> To summarize, in my campaign(s) and mind, Vicennes is in the process of 
> going to TL17.  This process could take 2-20 years.  This process is also 
> happen on other worlds going from any tech level to another.  I guess I 
> am just put off by the statist/socialist aproach in the RSB.  

I think that they just meant that the Regency was not investing in 
Vincennes, and perhaps was taxing its industries in a heavy-handed 
manner.  I don't think that they were outlawing higher-tech.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 08:05:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "'Emperor' Charles Pratt" <capratt@u.washington.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Various
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.951009080034.80653A-100000@homer11.u.washington.edu>




"Storm the Reality Studio. And retake the universe." -- William S. Burroughs
        Charles Pratt capratt@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.

On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> 
> Howdy,
> 
> Well, I've been making a TL16 Diplomatic Courier (for lack of a better
> name).  It'll be done my Monday night I'd say.  How are you other
> designers doing?  Mine's a hair over budget :-)
> 
> It got me thinking.  I did the design as straight FFS, but I also
> calulated the CT/MT crew levels (I used the HAIS stuff from gdw-beta,
> but didn't require any hardware, I just reduced selected crew areas by
> 25% (I figured that traveller computers have *always* been too big, so
> they might as well include all the automation functions on the ship)).
> 
> I didn't know what the diplomatic staff was, so I have 5 diplomatic

There would be basically one lead negotiator and possibly about 3 
assistants, a handful of staffers (legal research, etc.), and the rest of 
the crew would somehow be related to ship's functions---pilots, 
engineers, the usual, plus: very good intelligence gatherers, and about a 
platoon worth of very elite troops.

> staterooms (large, single occupancy), and room for 8 staffers doubled in
> small staterooms.  I threw in 5 troops as well.
> 
> I had problems given the desired "crew".  It would be more helpful to
> know what the diplomatic staff looks like, actually, because the crew is
> predecided by the design.
> 
> Other stuff:
> 
> I was playing with TL16 HEPlaR missiles, and decided on one point.
> 
> I will use armor = 3 on all missiles, and brace HEPlaR ones for
> their max gs output (int. structure).  Published missiles have higher
> max gs, and their maximum velocity relative to the interstellar medium
> (ISM in astro-lingo) can be just as high (with no rule that states "a
> missile above such and such a speed is d
> 
> Oh yeah, what would you call "long legs?"  I was thinking g's, then
> thought that big jumps mean faster reaction...

Well, in n-space the ship would have to be able to get out of tight spots 
(the natives are restless type stuff) and stay away from trouble, 
precipitating a high accel rating, and a high jump rating is a must 
because a diplomat  doesnt do much good if he aint where the trouble is.

> 
> 
> -Merrick
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:30:33 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Various 
Message-ID: <199510091530.LAA09326@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Mon, 09 Oct 1995 11: 06:04 EDT
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 11:30:32 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: 
: 
: 
: "Storm the Reality Studio. And retake the universe." -- William S. Burroughs
:         Charles Pratt capratt@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
: 
: On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
: 
: > 
: > Howdy,
: > 
: > Well, I've been making a TL16 Diplomatic Courier (for lack of a better
: > name).  It'll be done my Monday night I'd say.  How are you other
: > designers doing?  Mine's a hair over budget :-)
: > 
: > It got me thinking.  I did the design as straight FFS, but I also
: > calulated the CT/MT crew levels (I used the HAIS stuff from gdw-beta,
: > but didn't require any hardware, I just reduced selected crew areas by
: > 25% (I figured that traveller computers have *always* been too big, so
: > they might as well include all the automation functions on the ship)).
: > 
: > I didn't know what the diplomatic staff was, so I have 5 diplomatic
: 
: There would be basically one lead negotiator and possibly about 3 
: assistants, a handful of staffers (legal research, etc.), and the rest of 
: the crew would somehow be related to ship's functions---pilots, 
: engineers, the usual, plus: very good intelligence gatherers, and about a 
: platoon worth of very elite troops.

Ummmm, do you really want a platoon of troops.  I'm pretty sure that
blows the 40-60 crew requirements!  8)

I think that it would be much easier if you could give us some "hard"
numbers on the number of non-ship function staff.  Something like:

   1 negotiator
   2 assistants
   5 legal researchers
   10 intelligence agents
   ?? ship's troops
   etc...

Just as a note, spys aren't part of a ship's compliment, so should be
accounted for by yourself.

Likewise, you may want to give a displacement value.  The only reason I
ask is because a preliminary design I was working on displaced about
1000tons but was a sitting duck if using your weapon limitations.

: > staterooms (large, single occupancy), and room for 8 staffers doubled in
: > small staterooms.  I threw in 5 troops as well.
: > 
: > I had problems given the desired "crew".  It would be more helpful to
: > know what the diplomatic staff looks like, actually, because the crew is
: > predecided by the design.
: > 
: > Other stuff:
: > 
: > I was playing with TL16 HEPlaR missiles, and decided on one point.
: > 
: > I will use armor = 3 on all missiles, and brace HEPlaR ones for
: > their max gs output (int. structure).  Published missiles have higher
: > max gs, and their maximum velocity relative to the interstellar medium
: > (ISM in astro-lingo) can be just as high (with no rule that states "a
: > missile above such and such a speed is d
: > 
: > Oh yeah, what would you call "long legs?"  I was thinking g's, then
: > thought that big jumps mean faster reaction...
: 
: Well, in n-space the ship would have to be able to get out of tight spots 
: (the natives are restless type stuff) and stay away from trouble, 
: precipitating a high accel rating, and a high jump rating is a must 
: because a diplomat  doesnt do much good if he aint where the trouble is.

As a note.  6G's of accelleration won't help you against an SDB that
moves just as or almost as fast.  After all, the SDB is better equiped.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but when you said lightly armed, for
some reason I thought of a 2 turret limit or something.  Maybe you can
shed some light on this for me...

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

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End of TRAVELLER Digest 442
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